Well put. And it’s particularly frustrating when there is a double-standard for films where high school romance and drama seems to get away with a lot more…

Good for you for donating to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund! You’re making things safer and fairer for everyone!

It’s not in every manga that a age is determined, and in some high school manga’s, a character turns 18 within the story. The inspectors aren’t going to read through the whole story to find out that they later turn 18.
It’s ridiculous to treat a manga book, fictional and purely not with real people, as you would a pornographic tape that was recorded.

I don’t want to be arrested for supporting my favorite authors and artists overseas. I don’t want rash speculation about the contents of my manga, I don’t even read shotacon or lolicon! We shouldn’t have to look at the cover of our manga before ordering it and wonder if it will look suspicious to authorities.

(Yes, I am donating by the way, Alex. )

Actually, let me revise my statements: those who’re cracking down on people like Handley are missing the real issue at heart or they just don’t want to touch the “hot topics”. This is after re-reading all those articles about child sex abuse and comments by law enforcement who get frustrated by senate and facets of governments or even “do-gooders” who’ve not an idea about what “child sex abuse” is exactly and start championing about “child rights” when what they’re doing creates a haven for pedophiles or takes away funding and important attention away from the real issues instead.

The real “child predators” include the fathers/mothers who’re raping their 1 year old son/daughter and who bring in defense attorneys to talk about keeping the family together. They’re ordinary people with a family and not some “deviant” as portrayed in Hollywood and all those fiction and non-fiction. Often, they just don’t care whether it’s a kid or not, as long as they can have sex and satisfy their own curiosities and desires.

They’re the ones who will film the act of raping a kid and who sell the dvd for money or “credits”, or even use the film as a bargaining tool for exchanging kids with other pedophiles. These people are unlikely to be satisfied with or even bother with fictional(no real humans of any age, months or years, involved) child and adult/child on child sex and would go for the former if presented with two choices: real or fantasy sex.

To all those who don’t get it: look, it’s the line that separates the sick, cruel bastards from the rational, normal humans. Rational, normal humans imagine and write/draw/etc. about it(“It” can be anything: rape, murder, experimentation on animals/humans, etc. ). They won’t do anything beyond fantasy because they’ve got checks and limits like empathy, bonds, guilt, love, fear, respect for life and others’ values and emotions, etc. that stop them from doing so. They may also “pretend” to do it during sex or something else like on film as a prank or silly act but they won’t go out and try the real thing. They know someone will be hurt if they step over that line. It can be sick/frightening stuff they/their minds will produce but that’s not the right people the law should be looking at because the law should be looking at “protecting people”, not “diverting attention from the real issue”. Btw, all these “checks and limits” represent the line or what you could call “the boundary”.

The sick, cruel bastards imagine and put their thoughts into action instead on real humans. What line? What feelings? They don’t care about all those things! They may write fiction about committing these deeds but they won’t stop at it. It’s what separates the likes of Marquis de Sade or even that nice teacher who’s preying on her pupils from humans who maybe fantasise about being cruel but stop short when you ask them to bash someone’s skull open or to do “a certain sexual act” to a crying, screaming kid. I say “humans” ‘cos those people like pedophiles, Marquis de Sade, etc. are monsters and have already gone past the limit and turned into some sick screwed-up bastard.

For those interested, Andrew Vachss makes some very valid points about child sex abuse and how child predators are often created, in his article: “Preying on Predators, Not Praying for Their Forgiveness”
http://www.vachss.com/av_interviews/razorcake.html

My statements may be strong but I think such discussions need way more realistic research and facts, if people really want to understand the “whys” behind an issue and not just jump at the “effects”. And everytime the law spends time hounding after issues like Handley case, there’re at least 2 to 3 kids who’re whored out by their parents/caretakers to others while no one gives a damn ‘cos it’s too disgusting for them to even bother finding more about and also ‘cos talking about it will scandalise their careers. “We want to be pure and perfect, you see.” “But at the expense of what and whom?”

I found this very thorough essay: Obscenity and Article 175 of the Japanese Penal Code: A Short Introduction to Japanese Censorship. It can be a little dry, but it’s very thorough and the subject matter is fascinating. (WARNING: Some NSFW pics used as examples.)

Right… I skimmed through the article. Interesting… but it only reinforces my thoughts that laws can get defunct over time and how outdated interpretations can literally affect a medium for it is law and who wants to run afoul of it? As for “vague” definitions, they’re of course vague! At that time, they didn’t have to deal with things like certain types of literature and other topics.

Now I’m curious. You say you live in South-East Asia – where exactly are you from? And what thought-crimes do people get punished for?

Yikes… I am so not giving myself away. Explanation: It’s more like there’s a set of invisible boundaries defining which topics we can discuss and which topics we can’t. Most of the topics like food, comics, plays, etc. are safe. Some topics like homosexuality, certain political issues and other topics aren’t. However, the challenge is that the boundaries tend to shift and change over time, which is why they’re invisible. So, if you accidentally slip up and discuss said topic and are caught doing so, that’s it and you’re in for a punishment of some sort. You don’t have to be caught in the act of “doing” what you’re speaking about; just saying is equivalent to action. Just thinking about it is equivalent to getting punished for it.

These invisible boundaries serve as self-censorship for you’re forced to hold your tongue unless you want to land into hot soup. It hasn’t stopped majority of the population, though, from going online and bashing anything the government does(whether right or wrong). But on the other hand, it’s very sad when even teachers and families practise self-censorship for fear of punishment.

I haven’t heard this argument before. It’s an interesting take on the focus on schoolgirls in erotica, etc.

To clarify, we weren’t talking about erotica but rather, about manga or society in general. It started with me saying “just cos people think it’s not socially acceptable for people who look too young to be discussing about sex or anything else.”, stiffling of comics, etc. Then he was saying “date girls” and “Japanese society is obsessed with the sexualisation of underage people.” and “The Japanese practise of paying schoolgirls to ‘date’ older men.” and “They usually dress younger.” That was followed by the comments I posted previously, about the pendulum swing and so on.

The comment about such a thought/perception affecting various mediums, comes from me. If a certain thought system becomes popular, why won’t it affect society in general and even how we see ourselves? And if a certain medium is also exported/introduced into other countries, then some of its’ perceptions/views will have an effect on many who’re constantly exposed to that medium.

Ahh yes… I’ve also read comments from certain law enforcement officers who deal with child sex abuse about how they fear that exposure to such materials/concepts like “sexualisation of minors” in various mediums like comics, television, etc. can be equivalent to sexual grooming.

And yes… it could be sexual grooming but on the other hand, the parents should be the ones monitoring their children and teaching their children the skills for surviving on the net/other media/etc. and how to deal with such materials. I mean: sure, you can try to protect children by introducing permissible limits on a message board or site but that doesn’t mean anything when they enter the “wild, wild West”.

I think that’s true. While I believe people in the U.S. can be a bit arrogant and presumptuous about our place in the world, our laws and decisions do have an effect on other countries, especially in the areas of sexual morality and censorship. And not just by example — our government is quite willing to bring political pressure against countries that it feels are acting improperly in regards to sexual behavior and this is especially true when minors are involved. I believe I’ve read in a few places that Japan’s recent crack-downs on obscenity in manga have been motivated in part due to outside perceptions by countries like the U.S. that Japan creates “child-porn comics”. (Although I’ve also read that it’s a purely internal movement, too.)
Ultimately, it’s in everyone’s interest that good law be made here in the U.S. for these issues.

Ahh well, “we’re superior than countries which don’t practise full democracy” and “anyone who doesn’t abide by our values system regarding religion, literature, racial/ethnic/gender/etc. stereotype etc. is lesser than us even if we still have less rights/respect for certain people than some countries do” is my opinion of US. I’m not anti-American, just anti-dumb government and people, btw.

Well originally, my comments were actually about how politicians like to randomly implement laws and concepts from other countries, with little thought or understanding for “whys” behind them while writing up massive comments and essays to convince themselves that they’re right for being idiots. This tends to translate either into pure idiocy(inconvenience the masses) or hurt random people.

I think this is true as well. This has definitely been changing over the last decade or so, but it will be quite some time until comics are considered as valid a form of visual storytelling for adults as, say, film is now.

That’s true… developments always take time and same for acceptance and education, too.

Sure it does. Use the blockquote tag.

Right, thanks.

Well, I’ve gone ahead and fixed your original comment. There is a plugin I like called AJAX Edit Comments that I’ve disabled because it hasn’t played well with my caching plugin (which readers have told me is more important – that the pages load quickly.) There’s been a few updates — I’ll try activating it again, but if it slows down my site, I’ll have to remove it…

Naw, you don’t have to go all the way if it’s at expense at others.

No need to apologize. I’m glad that the subject matter and my post has inspired such passion and thoughtfulness. That’s ultimately the greatest compliment you can give a writer.

That’s ‘cos it’s an interesting topic!

I actually have harsher comments about the Handley topic but that’s for the following post. MS Word currently lists this as page 5 out of 7. Besides, it’s meant more in response to some of those crazier comments I’ve read about this case.

I’m not entirely aware of what exactly the law says or even means. Or even its context.

I found this very thorough essay: Obscenity and Article 175 of the Japanese Penal Code: A Short Introduction to Japanese Censorship. It can be a little dry, but it’s very thorough and the subject matter is fascinating. (WARNING: Some NSFW pics used as examples.)

in my country, I think they do punish people for thoughts, really.

Now I’m curious. You say you live in South-East Asia – where exactly are you from? And what thought-crimes do people get punished for?

he said something like “Too much emphasis used to be on the ancestors” and that it was a “pendulum swing” and “From looking totally to the past, the cultural emphasis has swung around to looking to the future”.

I haven’t heard this argument before. It’s an interesting take on the focus on schoolgirls in erotica, etc.

I believe this case could have lasting repercussions, not just for America but many other countries. Hence, my interest.

I think that’s true. While I believe people in the U.S. can be a bit arrogant and presumptuous about our place in the world, our laws and decisions do have an effect on other countries, especially in the areas of sexual morality and censorship. And not just by example — our government is quite willing to bring political pressure against countries that it feels are acting improperly in regards to sexual behavior and this is especially true when minors are involved. I believe I’ve read in a few places that Japan’s recent crack-downs on obscenity in manga have been motivated in part due to outside perceptions by countries like the U.S. that Japan creates “child-porn comics”. (Although I’ve also read that it’s a purely internal movement, too.)

Ultimately, it’s in everyone’s interest that good law be made here in the U.S. for these issues.

I think the US has trouble realising there’s all different types of Manga, honestly. Because to most Americans, Comics = Superheroes.

I think this is true as well. This has definitely been changing over the last decade or so, but it will be quite some time until comics are considered as valid a form of visual storytelling for adults as, say, film is now.

does WordPress support the quote thingy?

Sure it does. Use the blockquote tag.

It’s too bad I can’t edit my post.

Well, I’ve gone ahead and fixed your original comment. There is a plugin I like called AJAX Edit Comments that I’ve disabled because it hasn’t played well with my caching plugin (which readers have told me is more important – that the pages load quickly.) There’s been a few updates — I’ll try activating it again, but if it slows down my site, I’ll have to remove it…

I apologise if this post is getting out of hand since I like to bring in outside perspectives at times into discussions

No need to apologize. I’m glad that the subject matter and my post has inspired such passion and thoughtfulness. That’s ultimately the greatest compliment you can give a writer.